Sunday, October 01, 2006
BC Mary hears a discouraging word
Some fabulously interesting comments are beginning to show up, from cheerful sightings of Dave Basi ... to guesses as to the legal costs to the Defence ($500,000.) ... and clues on research. But there has also been another kind of comment, which come from a different and (to me) worrying point of view. These comments suggest that the raids don't signify much ... "these things happen all the time" ... that Basi is a victim ... that other guys have done worse ... that Basi has suffered enough ... and (here's what lit the fuse) that we should "stop the hang 'em high rhetoric". I tried not to overreact, but eventually lost my cool (such as it is). Knowing that not everybody has time to look into the Comments sidebars, I post the key:
BC Mary said...
Anon, Anon, dear Anon ... you have never seen me speak of punishment for Basi, Virk or Basi. Never. Not once. Not a syllable.
It went through me like a knife, when you said "let us ... dispense with the hangem high rhetoric." You've never seen or heard words like that, from me. Never, never. Not once. Jeez, that gives me the willies.
Let me say it again: my goal is to hear the facts of this situation given at trial, under oath, with cross-examination ... and "at trial" is the only way we're going to hear the truth of that situation.
I've said that Basi & Virk are the door-openers. I've said that they could do British Columbia an enormous favour if they tell us what went wrong, so we can fix it up, clean it up. I've said that I've never believed they acted alone, no matter what they did. And I've said over and over that it's the network of corruption which needs to let the sun shine in.
Further, I've deplored the torture Basi & Virk must have suffered as a result of this 3-year delay. I profoundly disagree with the commentor (was it you?) who said that they have come to terms with the disgrace. Only the trial will allow them that relief.
It's worrying that you can leap to such heavy conclusions as to find them guilty of other crimes as well, and yet you've already decided on a light sentence for them. A former Socred B.C. Minister of Forests went to jail for bribery; his wife had to work in a sawmill to support their family while he was incarcerated. You've decided that a Ministerial Aide deserves better treatment?
"Let us wait and see ..." you say. Are you sure? Do ya really think we can fold our hands, watch the sunsets, whistle a happy tune and justice will be done on our behalf?
If nothing else, the Editor-in-Chief lady demonstrated that the powerful don't even know that there is such a thing as "the public interest" ... they don't even know that we, the public, should be informed of basic facts of provincial affairs.
I'm going to stop now ... and not because I have nothing more to say ... hell no, but because I need to go and kick a wall or something. I can't believe you said all that stuff.
September 27, 2006
Anonymous said...
Didn't mean to upset you.
September 27, 2006
BC Mary said...
Throughout my life, I've heard men say that to women. If a guy states the case (as he sees it) strongly, that's a good thing; we assume he has reached a valid conclusion.
If a woman states the case (as she sees it) strongly ... and [forgive me] ... if the guy has no adequate response ... well, the attack switches gears ... discussion stops ... because (he says) she is "upset".
Passionate, yes. Upset, no.
I'm no more upset now, than I was almost 3 years ago when 32 policemen laid seige to the premises of our elected officials.
I think every Canadian should be upset to realize that Mr Dithers and/or the Campbell government may possibly have been foisted upon us by means other than natural voting selection.
We all should be upset that Organized Crime may be freely strolling the corridors of the B.C. Legislature, making decisions, offering bribes, or worse.
We should be upset if the day comes when we can't get anything done without paying a bribe.
We should be upset when the honour and ethics of the public service may possibly be bent to suit the underground agenda.
We should all be upset to consider that precious public assets may possibly be sold off at low, low prices, to suit this underground agenda.
How can you be so sure this -- and more -- isn't happening?
Or do you believe that Basi & Virk provide a useful diversion -- perhaps even a cover -- so that these delicious sources of uncontrolled power and privilege may continue for those in the know? It'd be easy to suggest that if we punish Basi, Virk & Basi, that's all there is to the story. That isn't true, though, is it.
E.g., where exactly do you think that $6 BILLION cash is going, each year, from the sale of BC Bud alone? Who decides to reduce the police budget while gang crime is expanding? Why aren't the increasing casino crimes being investigated?
Please don't clam up on me. This discussion is one of vital interest to us all. The worst thing that can happen now -- and appears to have begun to happen -- is if the CanWest/Campbell policy of withholding information creates such a vacuum in BC lives, that some of us will unthinkingly be sucked into the black hole and begin to take sides with the perps.
Please write again. I'm up for it, thanks.
...................................................................................................................................................................
BC Mary said...
Anon, Anon, dear Anon ... you have never seen me speak of punishment for Basi, Virk or Basi. Never. Not once. Not a syllable.
It went through me like a knife, when you said "let us ... dispense with the hangem high rhetoric." You've never seen or heard words like that, from me. Never, never. Not once. Jeez, that gives me the willies.
Let me say it again: my goal is to hear the facts of this situation given at trial, under oath, with cross-examination ... and "at trial" is the only way we're going to hear the truth of that situation.
I've said that Basi & Virk are the door-openers. I've said that they could do British Columbia an enormous favour if they tell us what went wrong, so we can fix it up, clean it up. I've said that I've never believed they acted alone, no matter what they did. And I've said over and over that it's the network of corruption which needs to let the sun shine in.
Further, I've deplored the torture Basi & Virk must have suffered as a result of this 3-year delay. I profoundly disagree with the commentor (was it you?) who said that they have come to terms with the disgrace. Only the trial will allow them that relief.
It's worrying that you can leap to such heavy conclusions as to find them guilty of other crimes as well, and yet you've already decided on a light sentence for them. A former Socred B.C. Minister of Forests went to jail for bribery; his wife had to work in a sawmill to support their family while he was incarcerated. You've decided that a Ministerial Aide deserves better treatment?
"Let us wait and see ..." you say. Are you sure? Do ya really think we can fold our hands, watch the sunsets, whistle a happy tune and justice will be done on our behalf?
If nothing else, the Editor-in-Chief lady demonstrated that the powerful don't even know that there is such a thing as "the public interest" ... they don't even know that we, the public, should be informed of basic facts of provincial affairs.
I'm going to stop now ... and not because I have nothing more to say ... hell no, but because I need to go and kick a wall or something. I can't believe you said all that stuff.
September 27, 2006
Anonymous said...
Didn't mean to upset you.
September 27, 2006
BC Mary said...
Throughout my life, I've heard men say that to women. If a guy states the case (as he sees it) strongly, that's a good thing; we assume he has reached a valid conclusion.
If a woman states the case (as she sees it) strongly ... and [forgive me] ... if the guy has no adequate response ... well, the attack switches gears ... discussion stops ... because (he says) she is "upset".
Passionate, yes. Upset, no.
I'm no more upset now, than I was almost 3 years ago when 32 policemen laid seige to the premises of our elected officials.
I think every Canadian should be upset to realize that Mr Dithers and/or the Campbell government may possibly have been foisted upon us by means other than natural voting selection.
We all should be upset that Organized Crime may be freely strolling the corridors of the B.C. Legislature, making decisions, offering bribes, or worse.
We should be upset if the day comes when we can't get anything done without paying a bribe.
We should be upset when the honour and ethics of the public service may possibly be bent to suit the underground agenda.
We should all be upset to consider that precious public assets may possibly be sold off at low, low prices, to suit this underground agenda.
How can you be so sure this -- and more -- isn't happening?
Or do you believe that Basi & Virk provide a useful diversion -- perhaps even a cover -- so that these delicious sources of uncontrolled power and privilege may continue for those in the know? It'd be easy to suggest that if we punish Basi, Virk & Basi, that's all there is to the story. That isn't true, though, is it.
E.g., where exactly do you think that $6 BILLION cash is going, each year, from the sale of BC Bud alone? Who decides to reduce the police budget while gang crime is expanding? Why aren't the increasing casino crimes being investigated?
Please don't clam up on me. This discussion is one of vital interest to us all. The worst thing that can happen now -- and appears to have begun to happen -- is if the CanWest/Campbell policy of withholding information creates such a vacuum in BC lives, that some of us will unthinkingly be sucked into the black hole and begin to take sides with the perps.
Please write again. I'm up for it, thanks.
...................................................................................................................................................................
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Hi there BC Mary it's DPL again. The reasons for judgements have been around as long as I can remember. Sure quicker and cheaper than going down to look and includes some un reported stuff. Or buying quick law or whatever it used to be called. But sometimes if it was from somewhere else and imprtant it was worth paying a few bucks. I seldom ever paid anything.
some in chambers stuff,in the Bc courts. The odd divorce cases done by masters show up as well. Some of it is extremly interesting The federal courts have a similar system. But in that system some cases were only reported in French. I can't explain that and one case I was chashing was in Vancouver and there was nobody who even spoke French in the case. I happened to be close to the courthouse so dropped in and the case was coming off the wire as I was asking. How opportune. It was a landmark decision and a lot of folks lost their homes over the decision. We used to live on land set aside for Indians( as the Feds so quaintly call reserve lands)
That's where I started reading the law. We couldn't afford lawyers for our associations so it was a fast learning curve. If you ask, people will usually help you out.
And the case you mention will end up in the record of decisions in the appropriate BC court. But not till the decision has been reached. I went looking for the court calender, didn't find it so hit the question mark and sent a request to the webmaster to tell me what if anything ever happened to the Upcoming stuff. If I get a answer tomorrow I'll let you know. If nothing happens well there is always the telephone But that site was sort of neat . The same information was posted on the wall in the hallway so I suggest it should be available on line. Time will tell. Keep an eye on the cases. But when the rest of the guys actually get to court it should be well advertised. Unless a cout blackout happens. But even then the results will be public.
some in chambers stuff,in the Bc courts. The odd divorce cases done by masters show up as well. Some of it is extremly interesting The federal courts have a similar system. But in that system some cases were only reported in French. I can't explain that and one case I was chashing was in Vancouver and there was nobody who even spoke French in the case. I happened to be close to the courthouse so dropped in and the case was coming off the wire as I was asking. How opportune. It was a landmark decision and a lot of folks lost their homes over the decision. We used to live on land set aside for Indians( as the Feds so quaintly call reserve lands)
That's where I started reading the law. We couldn't afford lawyers for our associations so it was a fast learning curve. If you ask, people will usually help you out.
And the case you mention will end up in the record of decisions in the appropriate BC court. But not till the decision has been reached. I went looking for the court calender, didn't find it so hit the question mark and sent a request to the webmaster to tell me what if anything ever happened to the Upcoming stuff. If I get a answer tomorrow I'll let you know. If nothing happens well there is always the telephone But that site was sort of neat . The same information was posted on the wall in the hallway so I suggest it should be available on line. Time will tell. Keep an eye on the cases. But when the rest of the guys actually get to court it should be well advertised. Unless a cout blackout happens. But even then the results will be public.
# posted by 
: October 1, 2006 at 4:15 p.m.
: October 1, 2006 at 4:15 p.m.
Hey BC Mary. I just got the instructions for court dates from the court webmaster. I'll pass it to you and we don't have to broadcast it to all. Am I being secretive? Not really but that's the way it's going to be done. Besides it's probrably got a limited audience among the folks who don'y do court cases for either side of the tables
dplove@telus.net
dplove@telus.net
# posted by : October 2, 2006 at 2:59 p.m.
: October 2, 2006 at 2:59 p.m.
Yay dplove@telus.net ... great news! Looking forward to what you've found out.
I've just wasted another hour on the BC Court site. Got interested in a proposal where the court system said it was going to make all documents except personal information available on-line. No dates on the proposal so it may be very old. But it invited comment from the public, and provided a click-on address for the person in charge. So I wrote my little e.mail, checked my facts, polished my politeness, pressed SEND ... and back it came instantaneously ... message failure. Sheesh.
Next in: your message, so it was very welcome indeed.
I've just wasted another hour on the BC Court site. Got interested in a proposal where the court system said it was going to make all documents except personal information available on-line. No dates on the proposal so it may be very old. But it invited comment from the public, and provided a click-on address for the person in charge. So I wrote my little e.mail, checked my facts, polished my politeness, pressed SEND ... and back it came instantaneously ... message failure. Sheesh.
Next in: your message, so it was very welcome indeed.
https://webapps.ag.gov.bc.ca/cso/courtLists.do
This will head you in the right direction. The daily schedule is free, everything else costs
DPL
This will head you in the right direction. The daily schedule is free, everything else costs
DPL
# posted by : October 2, 2006 at 8:08 p.m.
: October 2, 2006 at 8:08 p.m.
Hi Mary.
Ok so I am Trader Anon now!
To summarize, I don't argue with any of your assertions that the claims against David Basi are serious. I just think that your expectations are unreasonable.
David was well off while he was working as a $60K a year civil servant. I heard that he owned 3 hours, had 3 cars (one of which was a classic sportscar), and dressed immaculately. From what I hear he is now involved in a mid-sized development project that is going well.
David has lost no influence or credibility in his community. He may never be a MA again, but he will continue to be an "access point" for anyone wanting to do business.
As a result, I can't see how he would be motivated to "clear his name", provide any information to the crown, or do anything else aside from just sitting and waiting out the system.
Ok so I am Trader Anon now!
To summarize, I don't argue with any of your assertions that the claims against David Basi are serious. I just think that your expectations are unreasonable.
David was well off while he was working as a $60K a year civil servant. I heard that he owned 3 hours, had 3 cars (one of which was a classic sportscar), and dressed immaculately. From what I hear he is now involved in a mid-sized development project that is going well.
David has lost no influence or credibility in his community. He may never be a MA again, but he will continue to be an "access point" for anyone wanting to do business.
As a result, I can't see how he would be motivated to "clear his name", provide any information to the crown, or do anything else aside from just sitting and waiting out the system.
# posted by : October 2, 2006 at 10:50 p.m.
: October 2, 2006 at 10:50 p.m.
Obstruction trial against cop wraps
Richard Watts, Times Colonist
Published: Tuesday, October 03, 2006
Judgment is expected later this month in the case against a Victoria police officer, charged in an investigation that would end up with police raiding the legislature.
The trial of Ravinder (Rob) Dosanjh, charged with obstruction of justice, wrapped up last week in Vancouver provincial court. A verdict is scheduled to be delivered by Judge Carol Baird Ellan on Oct. 11 in provincial court in North Vancouver.
It is the first of several trials resulting from a wide-ranging police investigation, which officers at one point dubbed Project Everywhichway. It eventually had police raid and search provincial government offices on Dec. 28, 2003.
Two ministerial aides, Dave Basi and Bob Virk, both no longer with the government, face charges of fraud, soliciting or taking bribes, influence peddling and breach of trust.
Much of the Crown's case against Dosanjh, laid out by a special prosecutor, revolved around a taped telephone call between the 13-year police officer and his cousin in Saanich. The cousin's home had been raided by police on Dec. 9, 2003. In a subsequent taped telephone call, Dosanjh can be heard telling his relative to lie about $35,000 seized by police.
The officer tells his cousin he could say the money belonged to his father. Later, during a taped police interrogation Dosanjh admits the money was probably from drugs.
Dosanjh was arrested in late December, 2003. He was suspended with pay and after one year was dismissed and charged. The relative eventually had his charges stayed.
The Crown's case also said Mounties fed Dosanjh false information about a coming raid on the cousin. Within days, Dosanjh contacted his relative who began dismantling grow-ops and apparently destroying evidence.
But in an interview, taped on Dec. 13, 2003, with an RCMP inspector, Dosanjh insists he didn't tell his cousin about the coming raid.
He was at a loss, however, to explain why he never told any of his police colleagues about his relationship with a person they were investigating.
And Dosanjh agreed when the RCMP interviewer points out that his relative had systematically used him. "I can see that now," acknowledges Dosanjh.
He admitted it looked bad and none of the efforts on behalf of his cousin could be characterized as what the RCMP interviewer called "straight-up policing."
But Dosanjh insisted he was only trying to help a younger relative. He was not involved with any of the drug dealings. And he made no money off them.
"I'm not a crooked cop," he insisted in the interview.
--------------
You will notice this case is in the provicial Court not the Supreme Court which may well be part of the delay. But who knows.
Just thought I'd keep yu up to speed on this thing DPL
Richard Watts, Times Colonist
Published: Tuesday, October 03, 2006
Judgment is expected later this month in the case against a Victoria police officer, charged in an investigation that would end up with police raiding the legislature.
The trial of Ravinder (Rob) Dosanjh, charged with obstruction of justice, wrapped up last week in Vancouver provincial court. A verdict is scheduled to be delivered by Judge Carol Baird Ellan on Oct. 11 in provincial court in North Vancouver.
It is the first of several trials resulting from a wide-ranging police investigation, which officers at one point dubbed Project Everywhichway. It eventually had police raid and search provincial government offices on Dec. 28, 2003.
Two ministerial aides, Dave Basi and Bob Virk, both no longer with the government, face charges of fraud, soliciting or taking bribes, influence peddling and breach of trust.
Much of the Crown's case against Dosanjh, laid out by a special prosecutor, revolved around a taped telephone call between the 13-year police officer and his cousin in Saanich. The cousin's home had been raided by police on Dec. 9, 2003. In a subsequent taped telephone call, Dosanjh can be heard telling his relative to lie about $35,000 seized by police.
The officer tells his cousin he could say the money belonged to his father. Later, during a taped police interrogation Dosanjh admits the money was probably from drugs.
Dosanjh was arrested in late December, 2003. He was suspended with pay and after one year was dismissed and charged. The relative eventually had his charges stayed.
The Crown's case also said Mounties fed Dosanjh false information about a coming raid on the cousin. Within days, Dosanjh contacted his relative who began dismantling grow-ops and apparently destroying evidence.
But in an interview, taped on Dec. 13, 2003, with an RCMP inspector, Dosanjh insists he didn't tell his cousin about the coming raid.
He was at a loss, however, to explain why he never told any of his police colleagues about his relationship with a person they were investigating.
And Dosanjh agreed when the RCMP interviewer points out that his relative had systematically used him. "I can see that now," acknowledges Dosanjh.
He admitted it looked bad and none of the efforts on behalf of his cousin could be characterized as what the RCMP interviewer called "straight-up policing."
But Dosanjh insisted he was only trying to help a younger relative. He was not involved with any of the drug dealings. And he made no money off them.
"I'm not a crooked cop," he insisted in the interview.
--------------
You will notice this case is in the provicial Court not the Supreme Court which may well be part of the delay. But who knows.
Just thought I'd keep yu up to speed on this thing DPL
# posted by : October 3, 2006 at 8:23 a.m.
: October 3, 2006 at 8:23 a.m.
DPL, this is great ... thanks a million.
But isn't it astonishing that CanWest's Times Colonist took 5 days to publish the story? 5 days !!
"The trial wrapped up ... LAST WEEK," it says.
Thanks again.
This earns you a Citizen Journalist award y'know. [BIG smile]
But isn't it astonishing that CanWest's Times Colonist took 5 days to publish the story? 5 days !!
"The trial wrapped up ... LAST WEEK," it says.
Thanks again.
This earns you a Citizen Journalist award y'know. [BIG smile]
Trader Anon: Wow. And wow again.
Wouldn't I love to teach an Ethics course based upon the social values you've stated here.
What about doing the right thing just because it's the right thing?
And what about hope? As in my hope for full disclosure so we can clean BC up, fix it up, and start again?
Wouldn't I love to teach an Ethics course based upon the social values you've stated here.
What about doing the right thing just because it's the right thing?
And what about hope? As in my hope for full disclosure so we can clean BC up, fix it up, and start again?
Weird things happening ... my recent comments here disappeared ... and I only wish these cheap-skate gaming vultures would disappear ...
Meantime, DPL, I can't find that story in Times Colonist, not even in CanWest.com ...
Meantime, DPL, I can't find that story in Times Colonist, not even in CanWest.com ...
BC Mary,
Online it is subscription only
http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/capital_van_isl/story.html?id=00012c24-30d3-440a-8127-f31caee818d3
Apparently, it is located on page B3 in today's colonist.
GAB
Online it is subscription only
http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/capital_van_isl/story.html?id=00012c24-30d3-440a-8127-f31caee818d3
Apparently, it is located on page B3 in today's colonist.
GAB
You won't find the story in the T/C on line version, unless you buy the paper seven days a week. The paper version has it well back from the front section . But at least it's there. I was sort of suprised to see the case was in provicnal court but let's face it, there is where it went. Did you get that link for the daily shcedules at assorted levels of courts that I shipped your way? DPL
# posted by : October 3, 2006 at 4:04 p.m.
: October 3, 2006 at 4:04 p.m.
DPL ... could you please re-send that link for the daily court schedules? It seems to have been side-tracked, with lots of recent erratic Internet action. Sorry for the inconvenience.
It has become clearer to me that the nice helpful BC Court Registry people who answer questions by telephone, aren't well briefed. Remember how I was sent to the Parksville Court House which, I learned, hasn't existed for at least 5 years? And how information "can't be given by telephone" ... etc.
Well, I was also told that in B.C., all Supreme Court trials are held in Vancouver. Apparently that's not so, either.
So I have asked the courteous Stan Lowe if he could just spell out WHERE the Basi, Virk, Basi trial will be held ... and maybe the time and place for the Basi, Duncan, Young trial too.
Meantime, if you can show me how to get into the BC Court sites on-line at home, so as to read the judgments such as for Ravinder Dosanjh, I'd surely be grateful for that. Many thanks for taking the time to do this.
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It has become clearer to me that the nice helpful BC Court Registry people who answer questions by telephone, aren't well briefed. Remember how I was sent to the Parksville Court House which, I learned, hasn't existed for at least 5 years? And how information "can't be given by telephone" ... etc.
Well, I was also told that in B.C., all Supreme Court trials are held in Vancouver. Apparently that's not so, either.
So I have asked the courteous Stan Lowe if he could just spell out WHERE the Basi, Virk, Basi trial will be held ... and maybe the time and place for the Basi, Duncan, Young trial too.
Meantime, if you can show me how to get into the BC Court sites on-line at home, so as to read the judgments such as for Ravinder Dosanjh, I'd surely be grateful for that. Many thanks for taking the time to do this.
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