Sunday, June 22, 2008

 

RCMP lead investigator speaks

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Tonight, Sunday, June 22, at 9:00 PM (check your local listings to confirm times in your area) CBC will broadcast AIR INDIA 182, a 96-minute commercial-free documentary in which one of the RCMP lead investigators speaks about his work on this big, complex case. To quote from Kim Bolan's article ("Air India film has audience in tears", Vancouver Sun June 16, 2008):


Retired RCMP Sgt. John Schneider first worked on the Air India file right after the bombing in 1985.

He later headed the Air India Task Force that brought Ripudaman Singh Malik and Ajaib Singh Bagri to trial. Both were later acquitted.

Schneider brought his wife and daughter to see the film in which he explains the difficulties of advancing the investigation of Canada's worst terrorist attack.

"I thought it was an excellent documentary. It was very factual, particularly about what the investigative agencies did and the suffering of the families," Schneider said. "The impact on the general public is going to be dynamite."

Gunnarsson [the film's author], who [Kim Bolan] helped with some of his early research for the film, wants his work to get the Air India bombing recognized as the devastating Canadian tragedy that it was.

He acknowledged the help of families who were willing to tell their stories to him. He also praised Sikh moderates, many of whom were in attendance, for fighting on the front-line in the fight against religious extremism in Canada.

Several watching the film, like Liberal MP Ujjal Dosanjh and Ross Street Sikh Temple president Kashmir Singh Dhaliwal, have continued to receive threats for speaking out.

Dhaliwal said Air India 182 "is the most excellent documentary I have ever seen in my life."

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The Air India 182 documentary will bring together all the elements of an international tragedy with its underlying criminality. This is a rare opportunity to see how the RCMP approach such a complex task and many of us, in following the BC Rail Case, feel the need to know more about police methods.

To measure our expectations, I have pasted below an old news story from Vancouver Sun in which the complexity of criminality in B.C. is almost incomprehensible. You may wonder, as you read it: How do police cope? Where do they start?

I'm hoping that the Air India 182 documentary -- besides making us more aware of the full story behind the tragic loss -- will provide some real insights into RCMP performance in these complex criminal matters. I know that I'll be asking myself, as I watch: are our expectations of police realistic? Can police arrest enough crooks to get rid of all crime or is there something else that needs correction?

I hope others will leave their opinions and impressions here, when they've seen the Air India 182 documentary this evening. - BC Mary.


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The RCMP's gangster 'hit list'



Chad Skelton, Lori Culbert and Judith Lavoie

Vancouver Sun and Victoria Times Colonist

September 10, 2004




The RCMP has compiled a secret "hit list" of B.C.'s 20 most dangerous crime bosses, a list it hopes will help it put more gangsters behind bars and strike a blow against organized crime in this province, a joint Vancouver Sun-Victoria Times Colonist investigation has learned.



And while the RCMP refuses to reveal the names of the individuals on its list -- for fear of tipping off potential investigation targets -- it will reveal which group it considers the province's biggest criminal threat: The Hells Angels.



OMG [outlaw motorcycle gangs] is the top," said Supt. Dick Grattan, head of the RCMP's criminal intelligence section in B.C.



Grattan said biker-gang members make up the largest proportion of people on the force's Top 20 list, an annual ranking known as the Strategic Threat Assessment that the Mounties in B.C. have been producing for the past few years.



Asian organized-crime figures make up the second-largest group on the list, followed by Eastern European gangsters.



"The Top 20 would be the ones who have the most influence over organized crime in the province," Grattan said.


{Snip} ...






To prevent leaks, the RCMP's threat assessment has been closely guarded by the force.



Even senior organized-crime investigators in the province have only been allowed to review the list and have not been given their own copies.



According to police, the list represents a shift in the RCMP's approach to investigating organized crime. Until recently, said Grattan, the force was "commodity focused" -- measuring success by the volume of drugs it seized.



The problem with that approach, however, is that it often only ensnared the smaller players, leaving many of the kingpins untouched. The goal now, Grattan said, is for police to focus their investigations on the most influential and powerful crime figures, in the hope that putting such people behind bars will destabilize criminal organizations.



And while the RCMP doesn't have the resources to launch investigations into all 20 figures on its list, Grattan said investigations are underway -- or in the planning stages -- for at least half of them.



When the Mounties decided a few years ago to compile such a list, their first challenge was who to include. A preliminary list of all the known organized-crime figures in B.C. turned up 185 names, broken down into 85 separate groups -- some just small street-gangs of a few people each.



To winnow down the list, crime figures were ranked on 19 separate factors, including use of violence, infiltration into legitimate businesses and ability to corrupt officials. That combination of factors is what landed many of B.C.'s Hells Angels members in the Top 20. A heavily edited copy of the 2003 Strategic Threat Assessment, provided to The Vancouver Sun by the RCMP, indicates how high a priority the Angels have become.



"Within British Columbia, the influence attached to the Hells Angels organization and their symbols cannot be overstated," the report states. "Since their inception in 1948, the Hells Angels organization has evolved into a structure that is designed to facilitate and protect the criminal enterprises of its membership."



Insp. Andy Richards is a biker-gang expert with the Combined Forces Special Enforcement Unit, a group within the RCMP that's taken over many duties of the Organized Crime Agency of B.C.



Richards said what makes Angels membership so attractive to criminals is that the gang has a reputation in the criminal world for violence and power -- making it easier for members to collect drug debts and intimidate the competition.



While a gang member with a Hells Angels patch on his jacket may be an easier target for police than an Asian gangster, the association with the Angels is worth the risk, he said.



"It's the power of the patch. Once you have that patch, you have that standing out there in the criminal world that people are afraid of. Violence and intimidation is the gas that runs the engine of the Hells Angels."



A growing police fear is that the Hells Angels are infiltrating the quick-cash businesses, such as cheque cashing and money lending, although none are yet listed as owners of record.



In Vancouver and Kamloops, Hells Angels have bought cellphone stores and are rumoured to be setting up their own phone companies. In Kelowna, Hells Angels from around the Lower Mainland have large real-estate holdings and their business interests range from an up-market clothing store to a tattoo parlour.



Supt. Don Harrison, RCMP district officer of the south-east district of E Division, can drive around Kelowna, where he believes a Hells Angels chapter is about to open up, and point to expensive properties, brand-new condos and businesses owned by Angels. "These people are extremely well-organized. The profits they are making are enormous," he said.



However, while the Angels are powerful, police say they are not hierarchical in the same way as traditional organized crime, where everybody reports to a single boss. While each Angels chapter has a president who looks after club business, police say the criminal activities of the bikers are less formally structured.



"It's not like the Mafia, where everything goes to the top," Richards said.



He said Hells Angels members essentially run their own operations, with their own associates and underlings. "Once you're a full member, you're at the top, if you want to be, of your own little criminal enterprise," he said.



Richards said the Angels in B.C. have grown incredibly rich in recent years, in large part due to heavy involvement in the marijuana trade in the 1990s. "The Angels in B.C. were one of the very first groups to industrialize the marijuana business -- setting up and investing in multiple large grows and producing large shipments for export," he said. "The B.C. bud industry has made the Hells Angels, some of them, extremely wealthy."



But, as pot raids have increased, Richards said, some Angels have stepped back from growing marijuana and have taken on a greater role as brokers and middlemen, helping to ship marijuana into the United States.



One of the main reasons why the Angels are such a high priority for police is that their power and money has allowed them to infiltrate the legitimate economy. From supermarkets to clothing stores, the Angels have a stake in all kinds of businesses. Indeed, many people in B.C. regularly shop at Angels' businesses without even knowing it.



But nowhere is the infiltration of the Angels more apparent than at the ports.



Police in B.C. have often tried to play down the role of biker gangs at the Vancouver and Delta ports.



But The Sun has learned that a secret 2001 report by the Organized Crime Agency of B.C. identified by name five full members of the Hells Angels who work at the Vancouver and Delta ports, along with more than 30 known associates.



And in a speech to a meeting of provincial justice ministers in Vancouver in December 1999, Bev Busson -- then chief of the OCA, and now head of the RCMP in B.C. -- left little doubt about the influence of the Angels at the ports.



"[The] Hells Angels in B.C. . . . control much of the production and export of high-grade indoor-grown marijuana and the importation and distribution of cocaine," said Busson, according to a copy of her speech obtained by The Sun through an Access to Information request. "Millions of dollars change hands in this import-export business. Smuggling methods are diverse and include unchecked containers at the Port of Vancouver, an area under the control of the Hells Angels."



Insp. Doug Kiloh, the RCMP's major case manager at the ports, said he is aware of Hells Angels members working at the ports and said it is possible for anyone employed at the ports -- whether an Angel or not -- to commit crimes. But he played down the Angels' strength on the waterfront. "It's an unfair characterization to say that the Hells Angels run the ports," he said. "In my view, it's absolutely false."



Onkar Athwal, vice-president of operations for the B.C. Maritime Employers Association, said he's not aware of specific Angels members working at the ports, but it wouldn't surprise him. "I don't personally know of any individuals, but I am aware that there probably are some," he said.



However, Athwal disputed the suggestion that the Angels control activity at the ports. "I don't think they're controlling anything," he said.



Athwal said longshoremen are not subject to criminal-record checks or other background checks before working at the ports. However, Transport Canada has proposed new regulations that would require port workers -- like airport workers -- to be subject to background checks before working in restricted areas.



Public consultations on the new regulations -- known as the Marine Facilities Restricted Areas Access Clearance Program -- will begin Sept. 20 and the regulations will likely be implemented early in 2005.



Ciarniello denied five Angels members are working at the ports, saying he's only aware of two -- something he thinks shouldn't be an issue. "What is wrong with having a bloody job?" he said. "These guys are out there working. But because they're Hells Angels, you've got to put a twist on it."



Ciarniello added that people identified by police as "associates" may simply be friends of Hells Angels members.



"Being somebody who . . . knows the Hells Angels is not reason to assume that there is something criminal going on," he said.



After the Hells Angels, the second-highest organized-crime priority for the RCMP is Asian organized crime, which includes both Chinese and Vietnamese gangs.



Chinese gangs known as the Big Circle Boys are involved in a wide variety of activities, including drug importation and human smuggling -- but are also heavily involved in credit-card fraud and loan sharking.



Vietnamese gangs, on the other hand, are primarily involved in marijuana growing -- although they have recently begun to expand into methamphetamine labs.



Eastern European crime groups are a more recent phenomenon in B.C., but have grown steadily in the past 15 years, according to police. According to the RCMP's 2003 report, Eastern European gangsters are involved in a wide variety of illicit activities, "ranging from street-level theft and [drug] trafficking to sophisticated fraud and money-laundering schemes."



Eastern European crime groups have also been implicated in sophisticated debit-card scams.



Perhaps the most interesting thing about the RCMP's Top 20 list, however, is the group that didn't make the cut: Indo-Canadian gangs.



In the past decade, more than 60 Indo-Canadian men in the Lower Mainland have been murdered in a wave of gang violence.



However, Insp. Wade Blizard of the RCMP's criminal intelligence section said that while Indo-Canadian gang members are extremely violent, they are considered by police to be far less sophisticated than other groups, such as outlaw motorcycle gangs or Asian organized crime.



Staff Sgt. Wayne Rideout, head of the RCMP's Integrated Homicide Team -- responsible for investigating many of the Indo-Canadian gang deaths -- said most Indo-Canadian gangsters are relatively small players in the drug trade, often only a few steps above street dealers.



"They're not the millionaire gangsters," said Rideout. "They don't appear to be into the huge shipments. They tend to be low- end. Most of the people we investigate have leased cars. They drive fancy vehicles, but they don't have any assets."



The closest comparison to Indo-Canadian gangsters, said Rideout, is the inner-city street gangs in Los Angeles. "They're drawn by the status," he said.



Rideout said police estimate there are 30 to 40 separate Indo-Canadian gangs in the Lower Mainland, each made up of about three or four key members and maybe a dozen associates.



For the most part, he said, Indo-Canadian gangsters don't have the money at their disposal to move up the drug-trade food chain. "They don't have the cash base to go out there and buy homes like the Vietnamese [gangs]," said Rideout.



Which means, he said, that while Indo-Canadian gangsters are often involved in ripping off growing operations, they rarely set them up themselves.



And many, said Rideout, still live at home with their families.



"They're all mama's boys," he said. "They live with their moms. Their moms wash their clothes. Their moms cook their meals. And they go out and commit murders and then come home."



The violence among Indo-Canadian gangs is also more sporadic than in other crime groups, said Rideout. While Asian gangs or bikers may carry out calculated hits or acts of extortion for economic reasons, many Indo-Canadian killings are over issues of pride or bravado, he said -- sometimes over something as simple as an insult.



"It's done more for passion than economics," he said.



Yet, despite their lack of sophistication, Indo-Canadian gangs are still a concern for police because their violence has greater potential to hurt innocent bystanders than the violence of other gangs.



"The bikers tend to take someone out in the bush," Rideout said. "But the East Indians want to let people know that they're capable of doing it, so they want to do it in the most brazen way possible."



That means shootings in clubs and restaurants -- or spraying homes with gunfire -- all of which increase the potential that innocent bystanders could get caught in the crossfire.



Rideout said police get reports of about three to four drive-by shootings a week in the Lower Mainland that are connected to Indo-Canadian gang violence. "It's miraculous that no one [innocent] has been shot in their bed," said Rideout. "It's going to happen. They're so unpredictable and bravado-driven."



Police admit that, in the past few decades, they haven't had as much success as they'd like in combatting organized crime.



The Mounties' own 2003 report cites an "historical failure" in gathering and distributing intelligence on organized-crime groups to front-line investigators. While police have gathered significant information on organized-crime figures, the report states, "little . . . has been recorded in a consistent manner or in a format and place accessible to intelligence personnel."



Richards admits the track record of police in B.C. is not great. "I've talked about the collective failure of law enforcement to recognize the bikers as an organized-crime threat," he said, noting the Angels arrived in B.C. in 1983. "They ran pretty much unfettered for a long time and became very well established."



But police are hopeful that things are beginning to change.



Police and prosecutors have racked up a handful of successful prosecutions against biker-gang members and Asian organized-crime figures in recent years -- such as the conviction of Hells Angels members Ronaldo Lising and Francisco Pires for cocaine trafficking in 2001.



And they are hopeful things will get better. "I've seen some slow and steady progress in the last few years," Richards said.



"We're beginning to see additional resources and manpower directed towards the fight against the bikers.



"I think we're beginning to get it right in B.C. I think it's becoming enough of a priority for enough people."





B.C.'s Organized Crime Families:



Hells Angels and Vietnamese gangs are considered the most sophisticated groups, while Indo-Canadian gangs rank among the most violent



Outlaw Motorcycle Gangs/Hells Angels


Size: There are 95 members of the Hells Angels in seven chapters in the Lower Mainland and Nanaimo. There are also dozens of "associates" who are trusted friends of club members and assist in criminal activities.

Criminal activities: Heavily involved in B.C.'s $6-billion marijuana-growing industry, importing and distributing cocaine, hashish and increasingly, methamphetamine. Extortion, debt collection.

Propensity for violence: High. The Angels rule by fear and intimidation and aren't afraid to use violence to protect turf and criminal interests. Police are concerned about the Bandidos, a U.S. motorcycle gang already established in Washington state, moving into B.C. and sparking violence.

Level of sophistication: High. This is reflected in the low number of successful prosecutions.

Geographic reach: The Hells Angels have a network of chapters across Canada, the U.S., South America, Africa and Europe.

Structure/hierarchy: Organized into chapters in various cities, but no single crime boss. Each member works as his own boss, if he wants, and in small cells to elude police detection. "They are disciplined and well led," says Vancouver RCMP Insp. Bob Paulson, in charge of major investigations involving outlaw motorcycle gangs.



Asian


Size: Unknown. Police say there are dozens of small Vietnamese groups operating in B.C. The most prominent Asian gang in the Vancouver area is the Big Circle Boys, also known as Dai Huen Jai.

Criminal activities: Vietnamese groups control about 85 per cent of the marijuana-growing operations in the Lower Mainland and most of the drug trade on Vancouver Island, north of Nanaimo. They have recently branched out into methamphetamine. They also use Big Circle Boys connections to export pot to the U.S. The Big Circle Boys have made the Lower Mainland a hotbed of counterfeit credit- card fraud activity. BCB's mainstay is importing and distributing cocaine and southeast Asian heroin. BCB members have been involved in murder, loan-sharking, people-smuggling, extortion, home-invasion robberies and exporting stolen luxury cars to Asia.

Propensity for violence: Vietnamese gangsters are known for being ruthless and unpredictably violent during confrontations. Other Asian crime groups are more low-key, not wanting to attract police attention, but will resort to violence and murder to protect their criminal interests.

Level of sophistication: High. Vietnamese have developed a marijuana-growing system that has been exported to Vietnamese groups in Ontario and Australia. Big Circle Boys have computer experts for credit-card fraud and use off-shore accounts and shell companies to launder money and elude police detection.

Geographic reach: Vietnamese and Big Circle Boys have national networks in such major cities as Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Toronto and Montreal, and are expanding into smaller cities. BCB has a similar national network in the U.S. Some local Asian gangsters are connected to Hong Kong triads, secret societies of criminals.

Structure/hierarchy: Asian crime groups typically organize in small groups with low-ranking members answering to a crime boss, called a Dai Lo (big brother).



Eastern European


Size: Unknown. They are difficult for police to get a handle on because they use so many languages. Members are from Russia and other former Soviet Union countries.

Criminal activities: Mainly known for drug trafficking and credit/debit-card fraud. But also involved in people-smuggling, money-laundering, extortion, export of stolen luxury vehicles. Also have infiltrated diamond industry in Russia and southern Africa.

Propensity for violence: Medium. Don't usually like drawing police attention, but will use violence if necessary.

Level of sophistication: Varies. Often rely on expertise of individuals outside the group to assist in a criminal undertaking. Three members of a Romanian crime group were recently arrested in Vancouver for allegedly being involved in a highly sophisticated automatic-banking-machine fraud. Police say they used a bogus card -reader to download magnetic-strip information from cards and recorded personal identification numbers by using a tiny, overhead camera linked to a remote video monitor. Eastern Europeans are also involved in counterfeit currency, exporting stolen luxury cars, money-laundering and smuggling women, especially from Russia, to work as prostitutes and in massage parlours.

Geographic reach: Operate across the country but mainly concentrated in Ontario. Highly mobile with varying levels of presence in B.C., Alberta and Quebec.

Structure/hierarchy: Operate in small cells.



Independents and Indo-Canadians


Size: Unknown.

Criminal activities: Independents are primarily involved in marijuana-growing operations, where profits are used to fund legitimate businesses. They often cooperate with Asians and Hells Angels to distribute their "product." Indo-Canadians operate many dial-a-dope operations, using pagers and cellphones to deliver drugs on the street. Indo-Canadian truckers are lured by quick cash to smuggle B.C.-grown marijuana across the U.S. border.

Propensity for violence: High, mainly because members are young and show poor impulse

control. Shifting allegiances lead to violence, usually involving guns, among Indo-Canadian males. There have been more than 60 gang-related murders in B.C. involving Indo-Canadians in the last 15 years.

Level of sophistication: Low.

Geographic reach: Concentrated primarily in the Lower Mainland, Fraser Valley, lower Vancouver Island and Alberta.

Structure/hierarchy: Loosely organized in small groups of friends and relatives.



Traditional (Italian-Based) Organizations


Size: Unknown.

Criminal activities: Involved in illegal gaming such as sports betting, marijuana-growing operations, drug distribution, overseas lottery-ticket sales, debt collection and stock-market manipulation. Invest profits in real estate and such traditional businesses as construction companies, bars and restaurants.

Propensity for violence: Medium to high. Don't like to attract police attention.

Level of sophistication: Medium. Most groups have existed for several generations.

Geographic reach: Concentrated primarily in Montreal, Toronto, Hamilton and Niagara region of Ontario. While Mafia members remain low-profile in the Vancouver area, they do exist and have a symbiotic relationship with the Hells Angels in B.C. that is based on "social ties and illicit businesses," says the 2004 Annual Report on Organized Crime in Canada, published by the Criminal Intelligence Service Canada.

Structure/hierarchy: Operate in small groups but report to a crime boss known as the godfather.


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Comments:
What is the source of all this info in black type? Date? Where is the United Nations gangs? Who are the overseas players? This needs an update. We have 129 gangs now. Trade is global so are their activities. Terrorists who caused the Air India bombing still live here. Read Kim Bolan's book: Loss of Faith. Learn how the politicians are given cash in envelopes when they attend events. Then you'll have a really clear understanding of what is going on
or why little is happening to rid us of this scourge.
 
The 2007 report of the Criminal Intelligence Service Canada is available online. No names of gangs but lots of details about the expansion of criminal activities across Canada.
 
Interesting, it was only this morning that I was hearing yet another news report of "known to police". At that point I was on the verge of creating a blog that would list off all the "sightings".

Dead or Alive

Known to Police

The police raid in Richmond yesterday is a prime example, where although city officials on one hand are warning landlords that its their responsibility to check in with their tenants occupancy conditions, its a provincial government privacy law and the Landlord Tenants Act that states quite clearly that no surprise visits can be done (unless you're the police during a drug raid).

Failure on the part of landlords not to check, results in all costs for the clean-up falling squarely on the shoulders of the landlords.

How are landlords to know who is a good tenant and who is "known to police"? If the police have a list, then they should be sharing that data base with the public.
 
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Good grief, 11:41, stop yelling!!

The source of the complete article is clearly shown at the top. They're the guys who put the crime stats. in black type. No bogeymen here. And I don't have time or energy to do updates for you.

My point was made clear, also: this news story provides another example of "a large, complex case" such as the police have to deal with ... and it's laid out so that the public gets a glimpse of how police go about their work. In my simple way, I figure if we look at these cases, listen to some explanations, we may better understand their methods.

Thanks for the tip on Kim Bolan's book. Does it have anything to do with the raids on the BC Legislature?

And why are you yelling? You got a problem with any of this?

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Thanks, Anonymous 12:04, for that valuable tip on Criminal Intelligence Service records.

So, 11:41, there's your update.

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North Van Grumps,

"Known to police" does have an ominous ring to it. Julie Couillard is "known to police". I mean, surely Gordon Campbell is "known to police" so just exactly what does that mean??

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Campbell is "known to police" ... Hawaiian, other than that its the BC Superintendent of Motor Vehicles. Is driving drunk a criminal offense, if not then Gordon Campbell is not "Known to Police".

However for clarification by the Fraser Institute (well "known to teachers" for inconclusive public school intelligent ratings) the correct terminology is Offenses known to police"

The Fraser Institute takes a stand on this website and doesn cross the line on defining if a Raid on the BC Legislature fits with being able to call those involved as being "known to the Police"..... even though the whole thing started out as a drug bust with wire tapping which indicated that gangster/Hells Angels were actively involved along with property boundaries being moved on Agricultural Land Commission territory somewhere near Sooke, BC.

Where's Mr. Dillon (Matt) when we need some straight shooting and answers, in black and white.
 
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NVG,

That's torture, y'know ... to almost tell us so many things.

I'll take Agent 007 if he'll get this BCRail case opened up.

I'd like to add something to the remarks left up-thread about that big article. Another reason I thought it would be useful to look at that information again today, is because so many people go "Pshaw, pooh-pooh" at the mention of organized crime even being in B.C., let alone touching upon events evolving in the B.C. Legislature. I think this news report proves conclusively that organized crime is thriving in B.C., and the more we understand what the police see -- and do -- the better for all concerned.

See ya later, after the Air India 185 documentary.

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Anon 11:41 and 12:04 are one and the same person and no one was yelling but given your response I'm going to give you a pass for a few months.
 
NVG--

By all means, please start your blog.

I for one will stop by to read it.

RossK

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What this report says about Indo-Canadian gangs contradicts what the RCMP and the crown are alleging about Basi's cousin Jasmohan Baines being the kingpin of drug operations on Vancouver Island.
 
Rather then having to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you killed someone, if your a known gang member or heavily involved in crime you should have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you did not kill because it's so hard to convict anybody for these kind of gangland killing's.....And if your stopped and an illegal firearm is found in your possesion it should carry an automatic sentance of at least 5 years in order to keep scum off the streets. (sorry about the spelling I was short on time)
 
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Anon 11:53 dated Oct. 4/08,

I get your point, more or less ... but am puzzled by the absolute necessity of having to prove that somebody is either "a known gang member or heavily involved in crime" before we could think of taking the next step.

We must prove that connection, before we can inflict punishment on them for being a member or heavily involved in crime ... and how does society prove that, unless the suspects go to trial?

You're absolutely correct, I'm sure, in your assessment that it's "so hard to convict anybody for these kind of gangland killings" and I don't know the full answer to that.

All I know for sure is that on December 28, 2003 British Columbia was confronted with every indication of an enormous government corruption which may ... or may not ... be proven if it's ever allowed to come to trial.

I figure that we, as citizens, must wrestle this issue to the ground. I think we should give it everything we've got, to Basi-Virk to trial, and to get the evidence under oath.

What fools we are, to allow a handful of people to stop the process!

Thanks for your comment.
 
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