The Legislature Raids

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BC Mary comment:  It's always special when we can listen in on a conversation between two people who know their subject well. Here's such a conversation between two trainmen, on the subject of BC Rail and its Deltaport. 





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Canadian Railroads > Vancouver BC railroad map

Date: 10/02/11 01:06
Vancouver BC railroad map
Author: JGFuller

Wondering of anyone might have a link to a good Ry map of the Vancouver area -- or if you have one, could it be sent, or scanned and sent? In advance, thanks!

[ Reply To This Message ] [ Quote ]
Date: 10/02/11 04:03
Re: Vancouver BC railroad map
Author: ghCBNS

Vancouver Map here:

http://www.proximityissues.ca/Maps/RAC-2004-Vancouver.pdf

And the rest of Canada:

http://www.proximityissues.ca/english/maps1.cfm

[ Reply To This Message ] [ Quote ]
Date: 10/02/11 10:04
Re: Vancouver BC railroad map
Author: JGFuller

Superb! Many thanks!!

Of course, access to such info always triggers more questions!

How is it that BCR appears to own the line between Roberts Bank and Pratt - disconnected from rest of BCR?

And CP owns a disconnected segment from Pratt to Livingstone, which iirc was [or is?] part of the current SRY, former British Columbia Electric?

Are these segments individually dispatched by the owning road?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/11 10:16 by JGFuller.

[ Reply To This Message ] [ Quote ]
Date: 10/02/11 10:37
Re: Vancouver BC railroad map
Author: SOO6617

JGFuller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Superb! Many thanks!!
>
> Of course, access to such info always triggers
> more questions!
>
> How is it that BCR appears to own the line between
> Roberts Bank and Pratt - disconnected from rest of
> BCR?

Intended to keep access to the Westshore Coal Terminal and Deltaport Container Terminal neutral.

>
> And CP owns a disconnected segment from Pratt to
> Livingstone, which iirc was part of the current
> SRY, former British Columbia Electric?
>
> Are these segments individually dispatched by the owning road?

[ Reply To This Message ] [ Quote ]
Date: 10/02/11 11:37
Re: Vancouver BC railroad map
Author: eminence_grise

JGFuller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Superb! Many thanks!!
>
> Of course, access to such info always triggers
> more questions!
>
> How is it that BCR appears to own the line between
> Roberts Bank and Pratt - disconnected from rest of
> BCR?

This was built as the "BC Harbour Commissioners Railway", a Provincially owned railway seperate from the BCR. At some point it was folded into the BCR while the Province of BC still owned it.

The present owner is still BCR, specifically not leased to CN when the rest of the railway was. It was and is controlled from a small dispatching/yard office at Roberts Bank.

>
> And CP owns a disconnected segment from Pratt to Livingstone, which iirc was part of the current SRY, former British Columbia Electric?

Complex bit of history here. This was part of the BC Electric "Valley" lnterurban line to Huntington and Chilliwack. Sometime in the 1950's or 60's, the privately owned utility company was taken over by the Province of BC, and the line became BC Hydro Rail.

In the 1990's, the Province of BC decided to sell the non-utility parts of BC Hydro , (the Vancouver bus and transit system and BC Hydro Rail). BC held onto the right of way, and has had various operators run the trains, first ITEL and later the Washington Group. They sold the Pratt to Livingston portion to CP however and use trackage rights. As far as I know, this portion is still dispatched from SRY's headquarters in New Westminster.

CN built and owns the Rawlinson Sub. from a junction on the Yale Sub. to Livingston.

At Colebrook on the BNSF New Westminster Sub., the BCR Port Sub. interchanges and paralells the BNSF for eight tenths of a mile, allowing BNSF trains access to the BCR Port Sub (BCR Mud Bay).


>
> Are these segments individually dispatched by the
> owning road?

[ Reply To This Message ] [ Quote ]
Date: 10/02/11 13:00
Re: Vancouver BC railroad map
Author: JGFuller

Thanks for this history and explanation. Complex indeed, as is often the case in multi-carrier urban areas.

Looks like CPR accesses Roberts Bank from Mission Jct., via CN to Livingstone, thence CPR [SRY] to Pratt, thence BCR to the port. The multiple OCS clearances or Cautionary Limits running must be an interesting intellectual exercise - esp. with a 15,000-ton coal train! I count possibly three different Dispatchers for about 30 miles of route.

Did you run on this route?

I was not aware that the BCR was leased to CN - thought it was a purchase.

[ Reply To This Message ] [ Quote ]
Date: 10/02/11 15:09
Re: Vancouver BC railroad map
Author: eminence_grise

JGFuller Wrote:

>
> Looks like CPR accesses Roberts Bank from Mission
> Jct., via CN to Livingstone, thence CPR to Pratt,
> thence BCR to the port. The multiple OCS
> clearances or Cautionary Limits running must be an
> interesting intellectual exercise - esp. with a
> 15,000-ton coal train! I count possibly three
> different Dispatchers for about 30 miles of
> route.

More complex routing here. CP's Mission Sub. branches of the CP mainline Cascade Sub. at Mi 87.0 Mission Junction, crosses the Fraser River on a multi-span through truss bridge. The Mission Sub. continues south to interchange with the BNSF at Sumas-Huntingdon, however, at the south side of the Fraser River at Mi 1, Riverside, the CP Page Sub. branches off to the west paralelling the CN mainline Yale Sub.to Mi 2 where it joins the CN Rawlinson Sub.

Also, with "co-production" directional running, most eastbound CN traffic including the coal empties go over the CP from Mission Junction to Coho/Nepa near Ashcroft BC, about a hundred miles to the east.

> Did you run on this route?

No, strictly the Shuswap and Mountain Subs further east.
>
> I was not aware that the BCR was leased to CN -
> thought it was a purchase.

Two Provincial Governments ago, the Premier promised not to sell the BCR. He didn't, he leased it to CN for 999 years. Initially, the Port Sub.was part of the deal, and many railways in the US and Canada were interested. When the whole bribery scandal became public, it became known that the Port Sub. was mysteriously pulled off the lease agreement. A CP vice-president legal suddenly got a job with the BC Supreme Court at that time. Whistle blowing can be lucrative.

Another complexity of track ownership. Beyond the high tide mark at Roberts Bank, the super-port is outside of BC juristiction and is Federal land. When the "Deltaport" container port was established, Omnitrax set up a nationwide switching subsidiary "Trans Canada Switching" (with an SD9 and an SW for power)who carried out the switching. For whatever reason, that didn't work out, and CP and CN and BNSF did their own switching. However, for accounting reasons, there had to be a Federally chartered host railway other than the client railways. A jointly owned CP/CN subsidiary,Toronto Terminal Railway which operates Toronto Union Station now controls the tracks beyond the tidal mark at Roberts Bank superport.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/11 15:13 by eminence_grise.

[ Reply To This Message ] [ Quote ]
Date: 10/02/11 21:22
Re: Vancouver BC railroad map
Author: crashnational

JGFuller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Looks like CPR accesses Roberts Bank from Mission
> Jct., via CN to Livingstone, thence CPR to Pratt,
> thence BCR to the port. The multiple OCS
> clearances or Cautionary Limits running must be an
> interesting intellectual exercise - esp. with a
> 15,000-ton coal train! I count possibly three
> different Dispatchers for about 30 miles of
> route.


CTC all the way from Mission to Roberts Bank.

[ Reply To This Message ] [ Quote ]
Date: 10/02/11 21:41
Re: Vancouver BC railroad map
Author: JGFuller

CTC - good to hear!

Who dispatches what? "Eminence_grise" indicated that SRY dispatches Livingstone-Pratt, and I would assume that CN dispatches Livingstone-Hydro-Page. So then, would BCR do Pratt-Roberts Bank?

[ Reply To This Message ] [ Quote ]
Date: 10/02/11 22:00
Re: Vancouver BC railroad map
Author: crashnational

JGFuller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CTC - good to hear!
>
> Who dispatches what? "Eminence_grise" indicated
> that SRY dispatches Livingstone-Pratt, and I would
> assume that CN dispatches Livingstone-Hydro-Page.
> So then, would BCR do Pratt-Roberts Bank?


BC Rail dispatches Livingston to Roberts Bank.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/11 22:00 by crashnational.

[ Reply To This Message ] [ Quote ]
Date: 10/02/11 22:01
Re: Vancouver BC railroad map
Author: JGFuller

Thanks!

[ Reply To This Message ] [ Quote ]
Date: 10/03/11 06:32
Re: Vancouver BC railroad map
Author: crashnational

JGFuller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks!


No problem. SRY trains have to contact the BC Rail Port Sub RTC to go from Pratt to Livingston, CN and CP trains have to contact the BC Rail Port Sub RTC before they get to Hydro, the CN RTC will line trains towards the Rawlison Sub at Hydro but the trains don't want to stop at Livingston as they'd have crossings blocked and would be sitting on a hill.

[ Reply To This Message ] [ Quote ]
Date: 10/03/11 10:31
Re: Vancouver BC railroad map
Author: eminence_grise

The Roberts Bank super port consists of two facilities, Westshore Terminals, which is the coal port and Deltaport which is the container port. Both have their own trackage. Westshore has two unloading loops with rotary dumpers.

When the market for coal export opened up to BC and Alberta coal mines, it became apparent that the existing facilities along Burrard Inlet, at Port Moody and North Vancouver were not going to be able to handle the volume.

Also, considerable navigation would be required by the coal ships to reach the Burrard Inlet facilities, and the Lions Gate bridge over the mouth of the harbour would limited the vertical clearance of some ships.

By docking at Roberts Bank, ocean going vessels could save half a day sailing time, and piloting and tug fees.

Originally, Westshore Terminals was owned by Kaiser Resources, who owned most of the mines on the CP. Kaiser Resources was dissolved when the parent corporation in the US had financial difficulties. Westshore is now part of the Pattison Group, controlled by Jimmy Pattison, a grocery ,auto dealership, advertising and TV station billionaire.

Westshore has loading facilities for "Panamax" and larger bulk carriers. The only significant closures have been due to severe ocean weather, and when the rotary dumpers have required replacing. They are on their second set, and anticipate renewal in the next few years. From startup, there have been CP,CN, BN and occasional UP trains use the facility.

[ Reply To This Message ] [ Quote ]
Date: 10/03/11 11:52
Re: Vancouver BC railroad map
Author: eminence_grise

Parts of the BCR Port Sub. were built of the abandoned right of way of the Great Northern's "Victoria Terminal Railway & Ferry" line to Port Guichon, slightly to the north of Roberts Bank. The VTR&F (built 1903)connected to the GN's New Westminster Southern, the present Vancouver to Seattle line, and to the GN's Vancouver,Victoria & Eastern, which was built most of the way across southern BC but later abandoned. At Port Guichon, car ferries transported trains to Sidney on Vancouver Island, where the GN's Victoria & Sidney provided service to Victoria. The VTR&F was abandoned in 1938, with the right of way reverting to the "Crown" (BC Government). Who would have guessed parts of it would become a railway again thirty years later?

Greater Vancouver has grown south into the Fraser Valley and delta. When the coal route was planned in the 1970's, it was farmland and bush.

To continue following the trainmen, go HERE:

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?15,2579070,2580066